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Russia invaded Ukraine today.

Discussion in 'General Chit Chat' started by aposhark, Feb 24, 2022.

  1. walesrob
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    walesrob Administrator Staff Member

    I've been watching DW on YouTube, and some of their output is just as good, or better than the BBC. Yesterday, I was watching a DW documentary about the background to the Ukrainian conflict filmed last year, and it was totally balanced and unbiased. No surprise to learn the whole conflict is down to Putin wanting the old Soviet Bloc back.

    The disintegration of the old USSR caught everyone off guard, and left power vacuums in the now defunct Soviet states, creating instability in the region. Indeed, in Russia, there's been very little improvement in the infrastructure since the 90's revolution (apart from Moscow itself and St Petersburg) and Putin doesn't like former Soviet states doing so well under western style democracy. When Ukraine separated from Russia, there was a lot of people on both sides who found themselves in a new country overnight, being forced to leave or adapt a new language and assimilate into the culture. We've seen this happen in the Baltics in the 90's, its happening again in Ukraine. History repeating itself, only this time, nuclear weapons are involved, and the West knows too well they dare not intervene.

    It's a grim situation, but fascinating all the same, seeing everything being played out on our TV screens. Its the Revolution being televised.

    I remember the 80's very well, and the constant threat of a nuclear war ever present. Seems we've gone back in time.

    History teaches us nothing.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  2. Druk1
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    Druk1 Well-Known Member

    When you suddenly realise life isn't like an online game of Call of Duty :ninja:
  3. Jim
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    Jim Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    Why did Zelenskyy not stop these neo Nazies from killing pro Russion Ukrainians? (Donbass region)
    xenophobic and neo-Nazi ideals
    Founded in 2014 as a volunteer battalion to help an overmatched Ukrainian military fight off the threat in its east, the Azov movement uses fascist symbols and has been accused by international humanitarian organizations of human rights abuses in the conflict zone.

    The National Militia is an independent group that is merely the latest component of Azov's civilian and political wing, known as the National Corpus. It is led by lawmaker and former Azov Battalion commander Andriy Biletsky, once the head of Ukraine's neo-Nazi Social-National Party, who attended the ceremony.

    Azov officially founded the National Corpus in October 2016, incorporating two other nationalist groups, including Patriot Of Ukraine, which according to Halya Coynash of the Kharkiv Human Rights Group "espoused xenophobic and neo-Nazi ideas and was engaged in violent attacks against migrants, foreign students in Kharkiv, and those opposing its views."

    That inaugural ceremony arguably had pomp more reminiscent of 1930s Germany than of postwar democracy. It included nationalist chants, raised fists, and a torchlight march through central Kyiv.
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2022
  4. CatchFriday
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    CatchFriday British Expat living in Alicante, Spain

    There is the suggestion that the neonazis were funded by the CIA
  5. Jim
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    Jim Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    Wouldn't surprise me.
  6. bigmac
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    bigmac Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    the way putin and co are treating their former countrymen / women/ children shows they would have no hesitation in using nukes.
    • Creative Creative x 1
  7. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

  8. Druk1
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    Druk1 Well-Known Member

  9. Druk1
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    Druk1 Well-Known Member

  10. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Neutrality does not exist in a world war, Switzerland managed it because of the nature of its terrain but in the rest of the world there is not a lot of neutrality, you have multiple regions at the brink, Iran->Israel, China->Taiwan, North Korea->South Korea and Russia->Ukraine is already a hot war, thank god it's going badly for the Russians but that fact alone is a freakin dangerous one as well as it puts more and more pressure onto a madman.

    There are a lot of Russians in the Philippines these days and in Asian countries in general, all engaged in economic activities be it construction or finance, being neutral is aiding and abetting Putin at this point, no one in Russia really wants this war no rational Russian wants this, but we don't have a rational Russian.

    edit: and all of these are potential nuclear conflicts one way or another.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2022
  11. Druk1
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    Druk1 Well-Known Member

  12. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    There's no point in that outcome - nobody wins.
  13. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Yeah but that requires a rational actor and Putin is looking less and less clever and less and less rational as time goes one.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    He has madse his demands fore peace in that phone call to Turkey.
    He needs an "out" and I feel pretty confident he will be offered one.
  16. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    He does need an "out" he's destroyed Russia, those poor people in Russia will be in desperate circumstances for decades to come because nothing is going to lift the sanctions now, nothing is going to reset the world back to happy valley happy face, not going to happen.

    He's probably going to get some territory but that's about it, the question is will his ego back down now, this is an increasingly dangerous man as his options reduce due to his own incompetence, his personal safety and position are now directly threatened which was not the case 4 weeks ago, he brought this on himself no one needed or asked for or wanted this war, this is Vlad's adventure as an old man it's his glory and shame as an old man, and as an old man that makes him even more dangerous to everyone on the planet.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  17. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

    That's too pesismistic to me, Jim :eek:
  18. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Europe is never going to trust Russia again, this is twice bitten forever shy, the only good thing that can come out of this is the acceleration of our move away from carbon based energy.

    Russia is an old and aging population and much like us it is at a key point in history, in ten or twenty years time it won't have the youth to expend on wars it won't have the bodies.

    You have kids Mike, I have kids this is the last thing we could ever have wanted we all thought that our world changed in the late 1980s when the wall came down we all thought everything was finally safe, we got a life that a lot of us didn't expect to get we are now old men and sure as hell didn't expect this.

    We are now in the most dangerous phase as Putin's invasion is not going well, he will be tempted to use tactical nuclear weapons to show that he is a big man even if his own soldiers die as a result, if he does the world changes forever, it gives permission to India->Pakistan, North Korea->South Korea, Iran->Israel amongst others, using tactical nukes broadens permission to allow the use of strategic nukes and that ends all of us.

    I want to be alive a year from now and indeed just under three years from now when I can collect my state pension, I want my kids to grow up in a world where everyone likes and respects each other and each other's beliefs, but we can't sit back and tolerate monsters who actively want to destroy the world around them .

    Putin is not behaving rationally, that implies he is under political pressure at home or that he is actually unhinged, right now whether we believe in a god or not we need to pray.
  19. aposhark
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    aposhark Well-Known Member Lifetime Member

  20. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Yep good video.

    But this crisis is about things beyond our control all of us in the West and the East are impotent regards this crisis, we are at the mercy of the political class that we elected or in the case of Russia which was appointed.

    So far Europe and the USA have responded in the only rational way they could, the scary thing is that all of our fates are currently in the hands of a few individuals on the entire planet, that's not normally the case, in a world of cooperation we interact with each other on an economic competitive basis, much like sport, in sport we compete in a good mannered way where we all respect each other but feel proud when we win a particular competition, in this world now we are not interacting with multiple people or with entire countries, we are interacting with one man because the political system in his country allowed one man to achieve almost total power.

    As a group no one would want extinction but an individual like Putin has a different perspective.
    • Agree Agree x 2

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