Paris...........

Quite a long article John, thanks.
You lost me on the "Jesus" thing - I like to think about facts.
The "softly softly" approach perhaps is an option that should be considered; the other approach hasn't worked very well (invading Iraq didn't help) as far as I can see. Bombing in the jungle only causes more bombing in the jungle.......IS has just gone too far though and maybe this is the beginning of the end for them.

I personally found the atlantic article very well written and interesting. It brought together a number of pieces of information that I have gleaned from other sources. I shall read it a second time. I do however, feel that the critical point to consider however, is just how many people share the same viewpoint as the interviewees the author chose to engage. Clearly if a billion people felt the same way, then the enslavement of the men and the taking of the women of the west would be a real possibility, although I suspect not one seriously acknowledged by western politicians until too late in the day. I'm reminded of the phony war and the attempts at appeasement by Chamberlain at the start of WWII. It's often convenient to ignore a threat that will disrupt your comfortable life until it's too late.

Perhaps the real danger of the current western bombing strategy is that it will not win hearts and minds, but rather merely spawn support for the idea more widely. How does one effectively combat an idea? It's not really something that people as a race are very good at.. The truthdig article is comparatively superficial , but it too contains it's own grains of truth.

I feel a wise person looks at history and the decline and fall of other empires. When Edward Gibbon wrote 'The history of the decline and fall of the roman empire' he produced almost a 6 volume blueprint of the stages that a superpower will go through during it's fall. To summarise, empires typically go through stages of growth, stability, maturity and decline. I recall reading that the 'decline' phase was often typified with a decline in morals and values, political corruption and excessive luxury and fornication. It is almost as if luxury itself has a corrupting element. It is easy to draw a parallel with those qualities and the society now enjoyed in the west, and as history tells us, all empires wax and wane.

Who knows, perhaps the 'empire' of the western world will fall within five hundred years and the Islamic state wishes to be it's replacement? And who are we to say that these people are not worthy successors either? My viewpoint is clearly coloured by self-interest and so I would fight to prevent my replacement, and of course in any conflict it's always going to be necessary to paint the other 'side' as evil and wrong, just as any man must do before he goes into battle. It's a very difficult question.

It's also easy to philosophize and encourage a 'softly softly' approach since talk is a lot easier than action. At the first signs of trouble, the warm hearted left will glow with righteousness on the behalf of a besieged minority - content to sign up their great grandchildren to slavery and destitution in exchange for the right to produce elevated copybooks of self-worth at the gates of heaven.

When considering all this though, I would like to point out this. One day, in the future for certain, our descendants are likely to have to fight some foe or other for their lives. It has happened before and it will happen again. As I said previously, in peaceful times, it is all too easy to forget the commonplaces of survival and the fact that the fight between living things goes on daily in nature with no rules, no mercy and with no quarter asked or given. I feel that any actions taken against ISIS should be taken with both eyes open as the real danger that this idea represents.

Excellent post my personal view is that climate change will bring about such changes that what we currently engage with will become an irrelevance compared to a world remnant thats priotity will be survival , once there is no longer the ability to so profligately consume and destroy our home balance will be restored with or without us

Then I respectfully suggest that you do so at your earliest opportunity so that rispostes such as:

do not trip so lightly from your tongue.

If I may say so, you are making some rather large assumptions, there.

Here's a snippet from my Facebook page; it was posted by Datu Sarip Dariangkal Sinsuat, but I correspond regularly with a good dozen Filipino Muslim friends. Their point of view is frequently very different to that in the MSM, as you may see here:

Quote:

If your motive is propagation of Islam. You blow up innocent civilians. No right minded individual will embrace your religion.
If your motive is in defense of your religion. Can religion be saved?
If your motive is defense of your people. Let the peoples, nations and governments around the world support your Cause
If your motive is establishment of Islamic goverment. Who wants a government borne out of violence and hatred. NONE.
If you call yourselves muslims. Then do what muslims do. READ, SEEK KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTAND, TALK AND DO PEACE. Because Islam means peace. Make every muslim proud.

You are not ignorant muslims. You are not ignorant, you are wise and good at what you do. You make peoples, nations and governments busy in minding what you do and turn the other cheeck on what you are and been doing. Protect the interest of Israel.
Need I say Zionists?

Unquote

This is also good:

https://www.facebook.com/prageru/videos/897194363656754/

Erm .... in Engwish?

Paris update:-

Police in deadly swoop on apartment in northern suburb

Explosions and heavy gunfire were heard in Paris as armed police searching for suspects from Friday's attacks raided a flat in the suburb of Saint-Denis.

Two people were killed in the raid, including a female suspect who blew herself up with a suicide belt. Seven people have been arrested.

The French government confirmed the seven-hour raid has now ended.

The focus of the raid was the alleged mastermind of Friday's attacks that killed 129 people.

Abdelhamid Abaaoud, a 27-year-old Belgian of Moroccan origin, was originally suspected of organising Friday's attacks from Syria.

The operation began at 04:20 local time (03.20 GMT) in Saint-Denis, the same district as the Stade de France where suicide attackers detonated bombs on Friday.

French Prosecutor Francois Molins said the operation was a result of intelligence suggesting Abaaoud was in the flat.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-34853657

That is all well and good but when fighter planes bomb Gaza and it is felt like a shudder throughout the Muslim world, what should fellow Muslims do? Do nothing? Also, when the veto is once again used in the U.N. to the detriment of Muslims how should they feel?

"Talk and do peace" are not being listened to by the USA in the U.N.

They do not trip lightly, they are shouted out vehemently.

What the IS has done is indefensible, but equally so is what Israel has done to the Palestinians.

Rules of the forum, as posted by Kuya:
No hate speech against people of a certain religion, race, sexuality or gender. Genuine criticism of religions or nations and their people is fine, but if hate speech is identified it will be removed.

This is a Facebook posting from a Singaporean Muslim which has gone viral:

I want to thank well-meaning non-Muslims who, in the wake of these attacks, have emphasised that they have been carried out by a small, twisted minority. A terrorist's goal is to sow hatred and discord, and by not giving in, you are defeating their plans.

But I want to say that as a Muslim, I wish that we weren't so quick to emphasise that this has nothing to do with us. While I personally have never killed anyone and none of my friends and family have ever resorted to violence, radicalism has everything to do with Islam. And the failure to address that out of a well-intentioned commitment to tolerance is making the problem worse.

ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and it is an Islamic problem. Let me say it again to be perfectly clear. ISIS is a Muslim organisation, and they are a cancer at the heart of Islam. And the problem will not go away until Muslims confront that.

ISIS attackers scream 'Allah hu'akbar' during their attacks.
ISIS recruits cite Qur'anic verses as justification for the rape and enslavement of women.
ISIS soldiers kill archaeologists, gay men and women, and people who refuse to convert to Islam because they are blasphemers.

There are no Christians in ISIS. There are no Buddhists, Jews, Pagans, Taoists, Houngans, Catholics, Wiccans, Hindus or even Scientologists in ISIS. ISIS is a Muslim organisation and they kill in the name of Islam.

So don't say that ISIS aren't 'true Muslims' or that they are 'not really Muslims'. Like any large organisation, ISIS exists in a spectrum. You have the aimless, restless teenager who never amounted to anything in his life and traveled to Syria because he can't find a job and doesn't know if the Qur'an is to be read from left to right or right to left. But you also have pious professionals, businessmen, and academics who read their Qur'an cover to cover, pray every day, were seduced into radicalism, and truly believe that the Islamic State's goal of conquest is a noble one. The so-called 'Caliph' Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi has a doctorate in Islamic studies.

So if you feel that Muslims are being oppressed or killed in Muslim countries, I expect you to also be just as outraged by ISIS. Because they have killed more Muslims in Iraq, Syria and Jordan than the entire US army. They have done more damage to the name and reputation of Islam than any Western nation. ISIS is Islam's biggest enemy, not the US, not Israel or France or Germany or the Russians.

We have to own the problem. We have to admit that this is a religious problem, and we need to renew our commitment to a secular country which treats all religions equally. I have believed in the importance of secularism all my life, and with every day that passes that belief grows stronger. Religion is no way to govern a nation. Not any religion, and not any nation.

ISIS is not America's problem, nor the British, nor the French. ISIS is not Syria or Iraq's problem. ISIS is a problem for Muslims. And if you can't admit that, you're not really a good Muslim either.

#LibertyFraternityEquality
#LongLiveTheRepublic

Hmmm. Who appointed you to be a Moderator?

You appear to be reacting against Fred's rather colourful slang word for persons of the Arab persuasion. "Rag head" as a descriptor may be unwise in this politically-correct age but it is not an example of "hate speech". In my opinion. But it is interesting that you should draw our attention to this particular alleged infraction of the rules when, in another thread here, you indicate your agreement to Keith's post in which he accuses all Israelis of being terrorists; that, sir, is an example of hate speech.



You - and probably Keith also - obviously still haven't read the Atlantic article as it's clear you attribute the cause of the Paris bombings to the plight of the Palestinian Arabs in Gaza. You are wrong. Read the article, you will learn something.

My point was more nuanced than that Mark (do try to keep up) and related to the time that we Brits were being bombed by by terrorists in Palestine

"Two of the operations for which the Irgun is best known are the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem on 22 July 1946 and the Deir Yassin massacre, carried out together with Lehi on 9 April 1948.

The Irgun has been viewed as a terrorist organization or organization which carried out terrorist acts.[3][4] In particular the Irgun was described as a terrorist organization by the United Nations, British, and United States governments, and in media such as The New York Times newspaper,[5][6] and by the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry.,[7][8] the 1946 Zionist Congress[9] and the Jewish Agency.[10] Irgun's tactics appealed to a certain segment of the Jewish community that believed that any action taken in the cause of the creation of a Jewish state was justified, including terrorism.[11]

The Irgun was a political predecessor to Israel's right-wing Herut (or "Freedom") party, which led to today's Likud party.[12] Likud has led or been part of most Israeli governments since 1977."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

We were also bombed in our own country, in London, Birmingham and elsewhere, by Irish republican terrorists. But that does not mean that all Irish or even all Irish republicans are or were terrorists. Besides which your generalisation - 'all Isaraelis are terrorists' - nuanced or not is completely and utterly irrelevant to the recent events in Paris. No connection whatsoever.

Have you also not bothered to read the Atlantic article mentioned in this thread several times now?

It is not coincidental that those who attacked and bombed Paris were Muslims. They and those who provided logistical support were all fully paid-up members of IS and the overall operation was planned in great detail from a dwelling in Brussels.

Mark, I am sure that you will know that I am not a moderator, it baffles me that you would even think that I was.
Calling Arabs "ragheads" is defamatory.
When Israel bomb civilians in Gaza are they creating terror? So what would you call them for doing that?

Unlike you Mark, I do not have oodles of time to read articles. I have to work.

Forgive me for asking this, but where's the joke in what I wrote? Is terrorism suddenly funny, a matter of great hilarity?