Reasons to avoid flying Cebu Pacific

I think they may allow PAL, which does after all have a current IOSA approval, back into European air space, but not the others.

I have been following EMSA's ditherings over Filipino seamen; frankly I have not been impressed with EMSA and I am not really sure why that organisation exists at all!

Some interesting data on Philippines air safety here:

http://aviation-safety.net/database/country/country.php?id=RP

PAL views the American and Australian markets as being more profitable and will expand its route network to encompass more cities.

To give a political crony a highly-paid job to run it, of course!

One of the accidents listed in that database concerned a Sunderland flying boat operated by the RAF. A click-through to view the aircraft type reveals this photo:



which I thought is spookily apt for this thread!!

And in Vietnam a similar approach to charming the passengers on board, though with a serious discussion about airline safety in general, internationally:

I actually agree that the European market is probably one with PAL don't consider so highly as the US/Australia runs. Essentially the Middle East airlines have got Europe-South East Asia tied up, with incredibly low prices through subsidised airlines/fuel. Very hard to compete against that. For instance here in Muscat they are now going to enter the market with direct flights, but in codeshare with the local Oman Air airline, because otherwise they'd never have a chance.
The other end of the market for quicker great circle flights and high quality service comes from the likes of Cathay etc.

I have to admit, it was laughable that the STCW 2010 Manila amendments came in at the same time as the Philippines was on the brink of dropping off the white list.... The Philippines has serious issues here with fraudulent licenses, and despite having some excellent maritime colleges is let down by so many corrupt flaws in the system.
The same is said of the aviation industry where only a few years ago fraudulently issued licenses through hours signed off for flights never flown at basic flight training level. About 2 or 3 years ago when I was trying to convert my EASA/British Pilots license to a CAAP (Philippine one) with so much beaurocratic paperwork to jump through that I gave up, I was offered a full CAAP ATPL for a price from someone quite senior in the CAAP who I met over a beer one evening.
That being said, I balance risks in life and the chances of crashing on a Cebu Pacific Air flight still remain lower then in a car crash in Cebu.

Thank you Ricky - you've pointed out two things that I hadn't thought of - the ability of the Middle East based airlines to dominate Europe/ SE Asia low cost travel and their access to cheap fuel. As a former employee of the Swire Group I am massively biassed in favour of Cathay but I wonder how Cathay are viewing the explosion of low cost airlines in SE Asia. To some extent they are protected because of their policy of "intelligent mis-use of aeroplanes" which actually means getting a long haul widebody that would otherwise sit on the tarmac at Chek Lap Kok during the day to put in a couple of short haul flights such as HK/Manila and v/v, and by their unique access to China. The other regional carriers apart from Singapore Airlines are probably quite relieved because they no longer have to operate loss making domestic services - these are now run profitably by the low cost guys. (SQ and CX live on islands and don't have any!)

I'm pretty comfortable with Air Asia, although they are actually the airline with the lowest cost per seat kilometre in the world, precisely because they are the airline with the lowest cost per seat kilometre in the world - my reasoning is that to get your costs that well under control, you have to manage your operations extremely well, and that means a high level of discipline and of reporting, which means high levels of safety.

I noticed this when trawling through the air fares sites, how often the middle eastern airlines were so much cheaper than others including say, KLM. I knew that there would be no other reason than the fact that oil is cheaper than water out there.

I paid a premium to bring my wife here using KLM, knowing that I could have flown her here on a middle east airline. But in the future I would hope to use the middle east airlines, particularly Etihad, again as they are so much cheaper as a rule, or have at least been so when I have looked.

Sadly both Cathay and Singapore are suffering at the moment, Cathay particularly because it relies heavily on cargo and premium passengers and operates an old and expensive fleet. Some people believe that the local management style as opposed to the previous expatriate methods is becoming a problem in both airlines, who have to compete now with low cost airlines, Middle East airlines and the many Chinese airlines. Airlines have to move with the times and British Airways is an example of an airline which has changed a lot in the last 10 years.

Yes - it's interesting to see that all the new contenders have expatriate management - and to see where former CX managers have gone on to ec Tony Tyler now runs IATA, etc.

The rapid descents into Manila are all to common due to poor traffic management from Manila Control.

The two Air Asia Philippines aircraft are currently deployed on the Clark-Kuala Lumpur route. AAP is in partnership with Zest for Philippine domestic flights.

Thank you for that rather pertinent information! Flew HK/Clarl/HK with them and all seemed fine - guess this was one of the two.

So, it rather looks as if we collectively favour Asia's senior airline, dear old Plane Always Late, with their competent flight deck crew, their contracted-out maintenance and their cabin staff of charming upper middle class grandmothers.

However, this A320 landing on a domestic flight in 1998 was none too clever - and the crew and passengers were incredibly lucky that there was no fire. Had fire ensued, with 124 pax aboard, it would have been an entirely different story. As it was, they just killed three people on the ground.

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19980322-0

And again in 2007, but the final report is not out yet (it was only six years ago):

http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=20071026-0

Interesting commentary in Markham's local paper from a seriously pixxed off member of the local elite:

(Incidentally, I didn't think durian was allowed on aircraft - another strike against!)

http://www.mindanews.com/mindaviews...ic-mishaps-in-davao-a-bisdak-passengers-view/

Good examples of a lack of refinement in safety standards / procedures and obviously not just confined to Philippine airlines alone. There is nothing like a loss of contract, loss of passengers or loss of landing / operating rights in this case etc to make businesses wake up and implement the required improved conditions. And unfortunately one of the biggest factors leading to improvements in safety standards anywhere is a disaster of some form. That usually gets peoples attention, especially if anyone high ranking or of celebrity status is amongst the passengers list.

This kind of situation is a mechanism for bringing in improved safety standards. Unfortunately with improved safety standards come higher flight ticket prices. HSE and HSE related training costs. This will be inevitable.

That contracting-out occurred, of course, under Lia Tan's ownership but it always was, as far as full-service engineering was concerned with the contractors being another Tan-owned corporation, MicroAsia (a partnership with Lufthansa).

Geriatric beslippered flight attendants may work for British Airways, KLM and every American airline but in fact PAL's are all young - under 30 - certainly those on domestic routes!

There's a link to another passenger account on that page, this time written by a lawyer who ends her piece with the following:

A portent to law suits perhaps. But

Sadly and being realistic, not much will happen. The Ateneo and other large users will boycott Cebu Pacific for a while but memories tend to be short here and it will all be forgotten in a month or two. Cebu Pacific will get a slap on the wrist from CAAP and it may fire some of its ground staff and maybe a flight attendant or two but both pilots will be retained due to there being an acute shortage of trained Airbus aircrew. It will simply live-on in the various listings and databases of aviation accidents.

PAL flight attendants were well known, 20-30 years ago, for being recruited from somewhat better social circles than the average trolley dolly, and the job, with its opportunities for shopping for handbags etc in exotic distant capitals, was much sought after. In fact they weren't recruited at all - they were all related to managers and flight crew!

I last flew PAL from AIA to HK last year and the good ladies on my (rather empty) flight, whilst charming and competent, were no spring chickens - I felt quite at home, as I might have flown with them in the 1980's!

How about travel insurance and IATA and all that. Massive insurance claims usually gets peoples attention also.