Surely. And this is the point where the vocal minority will suddenly not have a great deal to say. Or perhaps change the subject or say that it was all a joke. Because thats the way that it goes here.
I do hope we can we see past this episode and that the silent dont have to be compelled to post to fight against the blatantly obvious disrespect of others. We shall see.
To everyone, for the record Salman Abedi was a murdering miserable excuse for a human being it would be better if he had never lived but to discuss him in the way that has happened here you give him and those who would support him validation, it doesn't help.
I believe Andrew's absence may be explained by him canvassing for the Lib Dem candidate in a neighbouring constituency to his own.
Perhaps, however I believe my suggestion is a more plausible one. In answer to your earlier question about whether I was concerned, yes, of course I am concerned about security of the nation and the people within it. However, I do not feel that racist remarks such as those posted in this thread are any more helpful than the rise in hate crimes in Manchester has been. My own view is that the action taken against ISIS militarily is useful. However, I feel that Britain cannot wall itself without and become an isolated fortress. An idea cannot be fought. We are unable to remove people from the nation whose ideas do not agree with our own without ruining the fabric of the society that is so dear to us. Once someone within a nation is prepared to die to further an idea it is very difficult to prevent collateral damage apart from to persuade them to take another course of action. Consequently, I feel that the battle to end home grown terrorism must be fought primarily using practical methods such as detection and prevention and also fought in hearts and minds. I am sure that the great majority of the muslim community in the UK are as appalled by the bombing as we are, and we need to rely on their help, rather than sew the seeds of division and disaffection that will merely serve to swell the ranks of those that support ISIS and the like.
Thanks David for your post - and for being brave enough to "come out" re your faith. I would like to think your comments may have caused some to reflect on their intolerance - maybe naivety on my part! Actually, although I'm not a Muslim or indeed a follower of any faith I do know a lot of the belief systems of the main monotheistic faiths. I read extensively and have debated in person and online with religious apologists. I don't think organised religion is a force for good - indeed I believe it to be deeply divisive and corrosive. But - and this is terribly important - I have no issue with anyone who wishes to believe what they want - with the proviso that they don't seek to subjugate or dominate others - or impose their belief systems. That was why I was so enraged by the vile, offensive, comments from the usual suspects - essentially tarring all of your faith as a potential terrorist. I'm therefore obviously aware of those who take their cue from the literal word of the Quoran - and the Salafist / Wahabi position - funded and propogated by Saudi oil dollars. Most certainly not a progressive force or likely to lead to increased ecumenicalism. I'm also aware of the hadith and the various pronouncements on apostasy. Again, I understand and accept the point you make that in the main Christians do not take a literal interpretation of their holy book...perhaps Islam needs its own reformation. But you and I know the theological reasons that militate against this. I came here to learn and share experiences around the immigration process - not to lock horns (arguably indulgently) with fellow members about religion or politics generally. However, in a way I'm glad some of this has been exposed - not pretty for sure - with lots of raw emotion / invective. I earnestly hope that some members will take stock before spouting their bile. All the best. Gerry
In the main, I agree with you. With regard to military action against Daesh, yes it has had quite some success but it needs to ensure that organisation's total destruction otherwise it will come back to bite us - quite literally! The other point here is that any British military action against Daesh is likely to be halted in the event Mr Corbyn becomes the next tenant of No 10. One downside to military action is, of course, that it provides justification for outrages such as Monday night's in Manchester and is used by those who radicalise young, impressionable Muslims. I read the other day that the security services' investigations into those who perpetrated terrorist attacks against westerners almost always had something in common - other than being radicalised Islamists: apparently they were all drug-users, especially of Cannabis. Cannabis is known to induce psychosis and is used by Islamist recruiters precisely because it assists the radicalisation process according to scientists. Now if that is possible - or indeed true as-is - then wouldn't the Lib Dems be wise to suspend their demands for Cannabis to be legitimised? For what it's worth, I do agree that patients who are in constant pain due to MS or Cancer should be able to obtain medicinal Cannabis freely on the NHS and that should not stop. As for your "hearts and minds" strategy, yes I agree but for that to be effective minorities need to be encouraged to integrate rather than segregate. Not that it would have made much difference to Abedi who, until he left school, was apparently a normal young chap who liked sports, girls and music. I get the impression that his father and elder brother may be responsible for at least starting the process of his radicalisation.
Wow, just caught up with this thread. I didn't realise what obnoxious misogynistic racist people were in this forum... only joking, of course I did. 9 inch rusty pipes with barbed wire to use on a socialist British woman... that's a new low. As a Mancunian who will be in Manchester tomorrow watching my daughter run the 10k, with a little fear in his heart, I hope I don't meet the likes of some of the posters on here, or indeed Robinson. He's not welcome in my city, just like the people who write such abhorrent hate filled posts on here. It's ironic, such hate and bile of a religion and race, am I the only one who sees parallels? Anyway, you don't talk for my city or anyone I know who lives there. As for the Corbyn speech, the war on terror has been going since 2001, how's it going? Does the west bombing civilians create friends or enemies? Why is it not possible for there to be a civil discussion rather be shouted down by right whingers. This is how fascism started.
Cannabis will induce a delayed psychosis in approximately 1 in a 1000 users the rest will giggle a lot and get very hungry, in terms of overall harm alcohol is far more dangerous to society. The use of recreational drugs by these people is far more likely explained as a bonding process for the creation of a peer group to which they can belong, the same way that countless others form social groupings throughout the world, a great many young people are desperately trying to find an identity and if they are unlucky enough to get into the wrong circle they can end up losing their life. I watched a lot of good young people die when I was in my late teens, so much about your life and future can be determined from random events when you are young where you happen to be and who you happen to meet, the impressionable ones are the most at risk.
The "bad feeling" over there had very little to do with the Owners political views..From his past posts,over there he seems highly tolerant of Multicultural Britain.. It was PURELY his personal marital issue`s that caused the problem.. As with ANY marriage break up,it causes huge divisions on both sides of the aisle and after the bust up, both sides are involved in a bitter divorce!! Thus this forum was born..From bitterness,feeling of loss,scorn..... and anger! I never actually commented once on that ridiculous car wreck and just changed the channel till the dust settled. If someone wants to make their private life ,public on an internet forum,that`s up to them... (cringe) As far as I`m concerned it`s NONE of my business how people conduct their private life and the last thing I will do is take sides!! I find it absolutely incredible how some people involved themselves in the way they did!! (cringes in pain) I know nothing about nothing and remain completely neutral in regards the private matters of others on the bloody internet!!. GEEZ!! Trusted members section?? Not interested in the least.. Please do not EVER invite me as it will avoid personal embarrassment for me having to decline.. It`s the bloody internet for crying out loud!! Trust no one!
My Mrs is a Filipino with a British passport..I tell her she`s British as far as I`m concerned, but secretly I think she knows that she is Filipino through and through.. She spent 20 odd years in the UK and loves Britain and it`s people BIG TIME! She says she is sad to have seen the cultural and religious demographics of Britain change so dramatically over the years.. Genuinely sad. Our kids are Brit/Filipino`s and any Brit that has ever met them consider them Brits first..That`s obvious. I guess that the R.P could be considered the most racist country on earth if you consider the rights that they offer foreigners or long nose Puti`s!! If I ever applied for R.P citizenship and actually got the passport to prove it,it wouldn't mean a thing.. In reality I would always be a "Joe" a "Kano"...A foreigner!! Do I feel offended? Hell no.. Love it here.
I accept what you say as the basis for friendly discussion but I'm not convinced by your numbers. I know the Daily Mail won't be a paper you would choose to read but nevertheless I ask you please to consider this article written by a clinician, Dr Max Pemberton three days ago: "While the pro-cannabis lobby does its best to minimise the evidence for effects on mental health, The Royal College of Psychiatrists backs current research showing that regular use has been found to double the risk of a psychotic episode or of developing schizophrenia. All too frequently, courts hear how individuals have become psychotic after smoking the drug and, in the grips of paranoia and delusions, have committed murder in cold blood. It is impossible to know if Salman Abedi was psychotic when he blew himself and his victims up. But there is emerging evidence that cannabis does far more than elevate the risk of psychosis. The drug also has a profound and serious impact on the user’s psychology, affecting the way they behave and think and, most chillingly, view others. We know cannabis can make people feel apathetic and withdrawn and that these effects can last for years, even if they have stopped using. However, developments in brain scanning techniques show the drug’s impact on specific parts of the brain, and it is this that is ringing alarm bells." "Paris Terrorist Smoked ‘Alarming Amount Of Cannabis’, Drank Alcohol, And Never Went To A Mosque, Ex-Wife Claims" was the headline for an article published a couple of years ago in the Huffington Post: "The ex-wife of Paris bomber Ibrahim Abdeslam has told how he spent his days smoking cannabis and drinking alcohol, as reports suggest the terror gang behind Friday’s murder spree may have been high on a cocktail of drugs. Naima said her former husband smoked “an alarming amount of joints, at least three or four a day”, never went to a mosque, and served two prison sentences for theft. The mastermind of the attacks, Abdelhamid Abaaoud, who was thought to be the target of raids across Paris on Wednesday, also did not attend a mosque, according to his sister Yasmina. Abaaoud, a Belgian national, was said to have briefly studied at an exclusive Catholic school, before either dropping out or getting expelled and drifting into a life of thievery and drugs, The Independent reported." Almost exactly ten years ago, the Guardian reported that "Cannabis funds Islamist terror", its story begins with: "Cannabis smokers are unwittingly funding Islamist extremists linked to terror attacks in Spain, Morocco and Algeria, according to a joint investigation by the Spanish and French secret services. The finding will be seized on both by campaigners for a harsher clampdown on cannabis and by those who argue that legalisation is the only way to end a petty dealing trend that is dragging growing numbers of teenagers into crime. The investigation by the Centro Nacional de Inteligencia and the Renseignements Generaux was launched after Spanish police found that the Islamists behind the March 2004 bombings in Madrid bought their explosives from former miners in return for blocks of hashish. The bombings claimed 191 lives." Which adds a new important dimension to the issue. CBS News reported in 2011 "Afghan's $61B drug trade funding terrorism" and cites the World Drug Report for 2011 prepared by the UN Office on Drugs and Crime: "Afghanistan's drug trade "is funding insurgency, international terrorism and wider destabilization," Secretary General Ban Ki-moon said, as he announced an ongoing effort to incorporate anti-drug programs into the U.N.'s peacekeeping and disarmament programs." There is, I admit, an argument for decriminalising Cannabis as this Reuters report from April last year explains: "Decriminalizing cannabis sales would strike a blow against Islamic State militants and Italian mobsters who, according to ongoing investigations, are smuggling hashish together, Italy's top prosecutor told Reuters." But perhaps Italy is more concerned about controlling the Mafia. So there would appear to be medical evidence that Cannabis causes psychosis and other mental "abnormalities" which, on its own, might not be a good enough reason but that its trade finances terrorism is perhaps the clincher?
My figures are from the 1970s they are an approximation of the number who will pretty much instantly suffer an episode of psychosis as a result of using Cannabis, those that do don't tend to continue using the drug. I find it hard to picture people deliberately attempting to use Cannabis to get into some kind of psychotic state, people that are stoned are not terribly effective at basic daily tasks they have co-ordination issues, joined up thinking is not exactly enhanced. There is evidence that Cannabis increases the risk of psychosis and schizophrenia in those who are long term users of the drug however the use of Cannabis alone is not a predictor of psychiatric illness, you will find it very hard to get concrete numbers along the lines of x percent of Cannabis users will become schizophrenic, however I would expect that the numbers are significantly lower than that 1 in a 1000 I mentioned earlier. Yes not hard to see how drugs would be used as currency by those engaging in or planning terrorism and yes it would be good idea to legalise it to remove that underground criminal market. Use of drugs like Cannabis amongst youngsters draws them into association with the criminal elements that are supplying the drugs and the move to harder more damaging drugs is generally a result of that association and the easy availability than it is on the drug itself, there is nothing about Cannabis that in itself would make you want to try Heroin it doesn't work like that. Regards that one in a thousand number, I've quoted that number for 40 years whenever this topic came up, because I am that one in a thousand, despite only ever experimenting with Cannabis 4 or 5 times I experienced several years of delayed psychosis, that means no use of the drug but still experiencing symptoms of the drug, it was mild and I was never seen by a medical practitioner or psychiatrist but it ruined my life, more to the point I ruined my life by being stupid enough to try it in the first place. I would never recommend anyone try Cannabis given what happened to me but the reality is that many do and for the vast majority of them it is pretty harmless, drink is a much greater social problem, when it comes to terrorist cells the drug use is symptom of terrorism not the other way round.
I am truly sorry to hear of your past experiences, Jim, but I do detect bit of a mixed message in your thoughtful reply. On the one hand you appreciate what the drug can do from your own first-hand experience and you clearly don't recommend its use, but you think it should be legalised. Surely, if it is easier to obtain it, many more would do so which might lead to increase incidence of mental health problems, no? Incidentally, where did you get that "1 in 1000" statistic from - everything I have read seems to indicate that the true figure is higher? As said, I strongly support the notion that those suffering from debilitating diseases and are in constant pain should be provided with medicinal Cannabis but I'm yet to be convinced that we should decriminalise it.
Well Jim, to me that would only be fair, maybe now is the time to bury the hatchet and let bygones be bygones, I have only read what you chaps have said about the other forum but I do know it was a long time ago. I would have thought there are quite a few members using both sites.
OMG, too many new posts (long too ) since I was on the forum yesterday, I cannot read them all, too difficult to jump back in What I would like to say is that we need these political threads or in my view the forum would just tail off to nothing, the key for Filipinas to be involved is new threads being posted on a regular basis, I know from my own experience that it is difficult to keep churning out good threads that are interesting so it is everyone's interest to do their best. Just look at the main thread starters and that tells its own story, Sean always kept the new threads coming and I know young Dom tries his best.
The damage to society in general from the criminal underworld that exploits the drugs trade is far greater than the harm that might come from Cannabis use, yes that's harsh on those that would be affected by the drug but we all have choices in life, alcohol has a far greater toll on individuals and society as a whole, and you might not be aware but Cannabis use tends in most people to suppress the desire for booze. I read those numbers in a book in the 1970's it was a medical publication, my personal experience suggested at the time and since that it was fairly accurate. I have known two people diagnosed with schizophrenia, one is my daughter's uncle, he developed the illness as a young man in his twenties he was in no way involved in the drugs scene but having worked as a painter and decorator he may have been damaged by the fumes chances are that it was genetically latent, however later he did self medicate with Cannabis he got exposed to the trade in Cannabis while in hospital, he is still alive and in his fifties now he was a nice lad but the toll of the illness makes him pretty hard work to be around. Psychiatric hospitals can be a bit of a den of drugs over and above the prescribed ones. The second person was a close friend Brian, he was a mathematician who studied number theory he ended up working as a programmer for some of the military companies over towards Edinburgh, Brian was not a druggy, he wasn't part of the cleek at university that were into the drugs scene but like many young folk he would have tried Cannabis on the odd occasion, he would by no means have used it on a regular basis, he was more of a beer drinker. Anyway his symptoms started in his very early thirties and effectively made him unemployable, he was in and out of hospital regularly for the next ten years, he had some good times and some bad times and being as smart as he was he was really hard to be around when his symptoms were strong. He had extreme paranoia and was hearing voices from god he could even tell us what he was being told, this is when we were out socially in a pub. He killed himself, I think it was in 1999, it eventually became to much for him, I hadn't seen him for a long time but the report was that he jumped from a building in Edinburgh. Brian was probably another who had a genetic latent predisposition for this, very unlikely that it had any connection to the very small amount of drug use in his life, although again he did get more involved with Cannabis use after he was diagnosed, it was some time after if I remember correctly. The statistics you are reading are likely the ones that suggest that 9% of Cannabis users develop dependency in the classical sense, it was long thought that Cannabis was not addictive in the classic sense of addiction however there is some evidence that about 9% of long term users exhibit symptoms that correlate with addiction this is still far less than other drugs including alcohol, I have known people that had some of those dependency symptoms and who used it for decades who found it easy to stop when they eventually simply changed their minds about wanting to use it. As I said you will find it hard to get anyone to commit to a context where they are willing to put a number on the assertion that Cannabis has a direct link to mental illness, the fact is it does in a small number of cases but I suspect that most of those will have had a predisposition to that kind of illness. As for me after about 4 years I never experienced any other symptoms, I just lived through it and learned my lesson we are talking more than 40 years ago, I don't think I had a predisposition to any mental issue but my psyche was simply not suited to the changes to consciousness that come from THC (the active ingredient) I did however learn a hell of a lot about what it is to be a conscious self aware organism in the process.
