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Support for Brexit hardens

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion and Ethics' started by Markham, Jan 6, 2017.

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  1. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Get the scale right Dave, there's no way humanity is leaving this solar system anytime in the next millennium if ever, the only technology that could see interstellar travel carrying humans is the Bussard ramjet and there are serious doubts that it would work anyway.

    We as a nation essentially invented the modern world, but the rest of the world took the mantle of innovation from us a long time ago, we still have blindingly innovative people here but the short termism of the majority has seen us fail time and again to capitalise on the things we come up with, we are truly lousy at turning our talents into industry and profit.

    No one country apart from possibly China is going to get us out into the solar system on a really long term basis, co-operation will likely be key and Europe would have stood a far better chance of playing a part in that adventure with us still in it 'co-operating'.

    Anyway my reply was addressing the accusation of 'self absorption' I only explained why I think a little further than my immediate self interest.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest

    I don`t think anyone felt entitled to have an opinion to question Newton`s theory until 200 years later...Enter Einstein and his ridiculous idea that gravity could bend light!!
    What division and argument and ridicule that caused amongst the scientific elite at that time..
    Enter Eddington!!!
    And on it goes..Critical thinkers eh...They were required to change all kinds of positive thinking to assist with true progress!
    God bless em!

    I find the arguments distasteful and deceitful also..Just for far different reasons than you do.
    Anyway,its done now. Britain will leave the E.U...What are remainers going to do with the rest of their lives??
    Become negative bore`s forever? Groan.

    Thats a ridiculous statement... What does he want to do that offends you so much? Cut taxes and produce American jobs for Americans in America?
    Build a wall to secure his countries borders from illegal aliens?
    Even Ford say they will expand their operation in the U.S now because of his tax policies for business..
    I don`t think I've spoken to a single working yank that has said anything good about Obama care yet...Anyway..That will be gone.
    Their stock market is up over a thousand points since he was elected... Don`t you think that a positive indicator of general confidence?

    Trump rally could mark biggest postelection stock market rise since Hoover

    If the postelection stock market rally continues at its current pace it could be the largest stretching back to the gains scored in the wake of Herbert Hoover’s 1928 election victory.

    Major indexes are trading at record levels with the S&P 500 SPX, +0.35% up more than 5% and the Dow Jones Industrial Average DJIA, +0.32% rising 7.8% since Nov. 8 over optimism that President-elect Trump will usher in a new era of economic boom on the back of higher fiscal spending and pro-growth policies.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tr...ion-stock-market-rise-since-hoover-2016-12-12
  3. Dave_E
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    Dave_E Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    Somewhat "tongue in cheek":

    Whilst I acknowledge that the earth is most likely round, the flat earth theory is far better for day to day use, otherwise the Australians would have to glue their furniture to the floor to stop it falling off onto the ceiling.

    :lol:
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
    • Funny Funny x 2
  4. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Yes and if you read my post again I cover the building upon foundations, Newton was not and is not wrong, Einstein extended mechanics to cover the full range of possible velocities and his work was very well received at the time.

    People remember him for relativity but don't realise that there were two theories of relativity the first one in 1905 resulted eventually in nuclear weapons the second extended gravitation, but even fewer remember that Einstein also explained Brownian motion and introduced the notion of the Photon which eventually led to wave particle duality which led to Quantum mechanics which he didn't like.

    In all of the above nothing was overturned, the new theory had to explain the same results as the old theory and they did, they extended our understanding.

    The point is don't mistake 'Critical thinking' with a licence to assert any old rubbish is true, because that's what's happening in the world today.
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  5. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Oh and you think another market rally driven by a government spending spree isn't going to end like all the ones before it, Ponzi alert!
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  6. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Yeah I think he used that one in his proof.
  7. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest


    Government spending spree!!! What do you think Obama did??
    US debt, 10 Trillion USD added since his inauguration!!!
    Who rakes in the interest?? Oh yeah..The banks!!
    Wonderful.
  8. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    http://www.usdebtclock.org/

    It's less than that, Obama had the fortune or misfortune to become president at the time of the financial crisis, the world owes the US a debt of gratitude that it attempted to stabilise its economy after the crisis and we owe the average American citizen a debt of gratitude for keeping the fires of growth burning in the decade before that, although if they hadn't it might all have have gone tits up a bit earlier and we might have recovered a bit earlier.

    Government debt is funded largely through the issuance of government bonds and occasionally the outright creation of money (quantitative easing) the bonds and the interest on those bonds go to the bondholders the bondholders are generally other governments and pension fund investors and other businesses, the banks like a bookie take margin on the transactions.

    So if you want to trash the banks fine go ahead but they are not the ones raking in interest on US debt or any other countries debt for that matter, the banks customers are doing that, businesses, pensioners ordinary people like you and me get returns on that government debt.

    What has happened though is that due to the interest on bonds being pushed to an all time low, pension funds have been forced to decimate annuity rates, a £100,000 pension pot will buy you a pension of about £4000 a year probably less, 15 years ago some people were getting £12,000 a year on a pot that size.

    You can paint the banks as isolated mega rich giants as much as you want but the reality is that not one of them actually has the cash on hand to cover total deposits, not one single bank in the world is in a position to cover total deposits because that isn't how they are supposed to work.

    Hate them for the bookies cut that they take, the margin, that's fine, I would have no argument with that and I think the commission rates that were paid to ordinary bank staff for selling investment products was obscene, the guy that sold me my mortgage and pension walked out and bought a Porsche the day I signed off on my pension obviously not with just the commission on my deal but he was pulling in a few grand for every mortgage and pension sold.

    But the notion that it is all the fault of the banks, sorry no.
  9. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest

    U.S Federal T-bonds are issued by the U.S central bank..
    The U.S central bank along with 54 other world central banks own collectively BIS or Bank of International Settlements..
    In reality BIS owns the central banks and controls 320 Trillion USD and WELL over 120 tons of Gold.
    They own the U.S FED and they control world debt.
  10. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Boots money does not exist, it's a human invention, just numbers on a piece of paper or 1's and 0's in a computer, it's not physical or real it is just an agreement that people generally stick to, a substitute for barter.

    That 320 Trillion you mention is about 5 times the gross world product in 2014, it does not exist as paper money or as precious metal, it just represents bets that every side has made with and against every other side.

    The only true value in gold is in its applications, as a conductor and as a catalyst you can't eat it and it won't keep you warm although you could build some fairly solid walls with gold bricks I guess.

    And apart from all that the banks that you and I deal with directly are not central banks and the banks that lent into the markets for decades building up to the crisis were the retail and investment banks they are not central banks but they are the ones that were paying themselves handsome commissions on every sale.
  11. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    Would those who did not vote for Brexit last June please bear in mind that 17,410,742 people did vote that way and that's more than voted for any political party or proposition at any election or referendum in British political history - including those who voted "Yes" to Britain's continuing membership of the Common Market in 1975 (albeit by a small margin). Behaving as if you're somehow intellectually or morally superior coupled with patronising remarks aimed at interlocutors whose views differ from yours and calling them a range of insulting names such as "blind", "thick", "racist", "uneducated" and "Fascist" is not only unkind and unnecessary, it is also untrue - certainly where fellow forum members are concerned.

    Let's please respect each other's opinions and views, even if we don't share them.
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  12. DJB
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    DJB Active Member

    Agreed ... thicko :D
  13. Timmers
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    Timmers Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    I agree with you wholeheartedly, I've personally got used to the abuse that that the remoaners spew up on the forum, first it was old Johnny boy followed by Andrew and now for some reason oss has jumped on the bandwagon.

    The people who become abusive are the ones who have lost the argument.
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  14. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest

    Wow..Thanks for that post OSS..I missed it somehow..

    Our original plan was to sell up in 2007 before our final move..
    I knew something was wrong with the silly increases with property prices and the continuation of zero % 1 year interest cards which we had been taking advantage of for the 5 years previous..At one point we had 5 cards and a very high credit limit etc...There were guys I knew with 10 of them that had maxed them all out and paid their mortgages a year at a time at ZERO % after saving their usual mortgage payments and making interest for a year..Paid off the cards at the last second before the 12 months were up..(after 12 months..40% interest on total loan) Then they put them through the shredder.
    Anyway..I knew something was wrong and I began reading financial papers with at the time extreme alternative views..
    After further study,even the estate agent thought I was crazy to suggest that the property and financial market were about to experience huge problems.
    The alternative financial sheets convinced me to sell up a year early...Looking back,I am so glad I followed their advise..
    Whew...That was a close one!
    The rest as they say is history!!
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2017
  15. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    In common with 17.3 million others, I voted "Yes" in 1975 but got buyer's remorse during the early Thatcher years when it became apparent just how much Brussels would interfere with our daily lives and its aim of homogenising Europe and removing national identities to create a superstate. Ever since then I've not heard or read anything positive about the EU that would persuade me to support our membership. I have asked here several times for EU supporting members to explain the advantages of membership but they seem unwilling or unable to do so - could it be that they recognise that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages, or maybe they can't defend the indefensible; who knows.

    I was brought-up and lived most of my life in small farming communities. If you think farmers' support can be bought with a few Brussels bribes, think again. That may have been so twenty or so years ago but our farmers are, by and large, sick and tired of Brussels' micro-management of their businesses. Farmers are issued with page after page of (daft) regulations defining (for example) what constitutes a "puddle" and what constitutes a "lake", minutely defines hedges - in terms of thickness, height, length, distance between and material - and the number and siting of 6 feet by 4 feet billboards advertising the EU that must be placed on farmland, paid for and maintained by the landowner. In order to receive any subsidy whatsoever, arable farmers are required to grow and market a minimum of three crops. The fact that Parisians can get EU farming subsidies for their out-of-town allotment-sized plots without jumping through the same bureaucratic hoops confronting British farmers illustrates just how rotten the CAP is; the EU rewards inefficiency and 19th century practices. According to my farming friends, food prices will drop as a result of Brexit as the "set aside" policy is reversed and farmers become free to grow crops that are actually demanded by consumers rather than those that they get paid for but end-up in Intervention Stores. It will also mean an end to the wholesale dumping of British produced milk down the country's drains and replaced by imports from France, Germany and Holland.

    And Brexit means our coastal waters can, once again, be fished by British boats owned by British families and companies, landing their catches in British ports and sold to British consumers. That should be good news for many communities around our shores and in particular for the Scots and those in the north-east and south-west. Not only will this boost employment in the fishing industry but also a myriad of support industries will benefit.
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  16. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Actually it should have been deaf and thick, the other words don't actually appear on this thread apart from in your post, it was a response to a nonsensical demonstrably impossible statement but you know that already.

    Patronising, hmmmm, to be accused of being patronising by the single most patronising member of this forum brings a certain degree of amusement, the member that makes up his own facts to suit himself, the member who taunted and goaded John Ash to the point that his behaviour deteriorated so far that he had to be banned (he's not getting back on by the way), the member who always has to have the last word.

    You keep starting these threads, that suggests that there is still something to discuss in spite of all those 17,410,742 votes, or do you just want a personal echo chamber, no don't bother answering because it's pretty clear that is exactly what you want.

    There appear to be quite a few people on here that don't agree with you or with Brexit and they are all silent now, no doubt sick to death of reading these threads, and you know something, I lied, it wasn't only for personal reasons that I left, although they were very significant in my decision, no I was sick to the back teeth of the way this place was being dragged down by writers who openly espouse views that to me and many others here are irreconcilable with the notion that they are married to Filipino citizens.

    If you want your echo chamber you can have it, have a great time patting each other on the back.

    And if you think the word 'remoaner' isn't patronising or offensive then think again.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2017
    • Winner Winner x 1
  17. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    When did you sell Boots?

    Me I was growing more and more anxious over the years between 2000 and 2007 as I knew it was impossible for it to keep going, but it was only in August 2007 that I knew the game was up when I went to take out a new car loan from a company that I had been a great customer of for many years, I always paid off loans on time never missed a payment and my business was still doing well but they put me through the Spanish Inquisition, I decided not to continue with the loan but I knew that company was in trouble and sure enough the full crisis matured within a year. It was a very scary time.

    I wanted to sell up and take the profit in my place but at the time Ana would not let me, probably for the best although I did eventually have to sell as I had to relocate, but there was no profit to be made by that time.
  18. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    The words "racist", "uneducated" and "Fascist" have all been posted by other Remain supporters in Brexit topics; do check if you don't believe me.

    Please don't try to allude that I was responsible for JohnAsh's banning, not when there was a PM conversation between us in 2015 which paints a somewhat different picture.

    Ironically it is a direct consequence of our membership of the EU - and in particular, the Masstricht Treaty and the Single Market - that makes it very difficult indeed for Brits to bring their non-EU spouses into the country. Who's actually the racist here, us or the EU? I and others have all stated many times our support for controlled immigration.

    I agree that "remoaner" is a pejorative term and perhaps it should not be deployed so often but it is less offensive than "remaniac" or being labelled "deaf", "blind", "thick", "populist" or any of the other insults hurled at those who voted to leave.

    What is fascinating is that Leave supporters' posts are upbeat, positive and, by and large, non-confrontational whilst those of our opponents are mostly not.
  19. Bluebird71
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    Bluebird71 Well-Known Member

    Yeah, the polls are always right aren't they?

    Second paragraph is EXCELLENT news for this "re-moaner". Firstly, it indicates that you have thrown in the towel, and that the Supreme Court will uphold our marvellous constitution and insist that Parliament has its say. Secondly, it indicates that our mature form of Government acknowledges the result of the Brexit vote, but that it won't be run roughshod by Theresa May and her donors. Although, she did help to compensate a few of those donors make a few bob by talking the pound down during trade close on Sunday in readiness for them to trade on Monday.

    Government may not be transparent here, but the PM is as clear as a pane of glass.
  20. Bluebird71
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    Bluebird71 Well-Known Member

    The NHS is struggling to cope because funding has reduced in real-terms. Maybe the Government are priming it so that it can be sold to the Private sector.

    Immigration brings in more in tax revenue than it costs in benefits - but I suspect you already new that.

    BTW, nice little swerve on the line

    "We need to put an end to uncontrolled immigration and free up the beds in the NHS for British people and their families, I had to add families before someone said "what about your wife."" - basically as long as the rules benefit you then sod everyone else.
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