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Support for Brexit hardens

Discussion in 'Politics, Religion and Ethics' started by Markham, Jan 6, 2017.

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  1. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest


    OK..Thank you for your very well thought through post.. I agree with some of it but instead of going off topic,I`ll start another thread in regard the brief history of banks...
    Historically speaking..Conspiracy fact!!
    Perhaps we can go from there..Or not.
    Up to you and others... Only if you wish.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2017
  2. Dave_E
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    Dave_E Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    Obviously a blinkered Guardian reader.

    Why is it selfish for people to object to an agenda that seeks to destroy their local communities and their livelihoods by means of mass immigration.

    People were fed very biased "campaign of fear" arguments by the remainiacs, an official campaign based on lies and mistruths. The Bank of Englands dire predictions are now known as their Michael Fish moment by Andy Haldane, one of their own team.

    Substained damage... the UK will have a great future once we escape from the clutches of the EU, have patience, if you can't take the stress sit down and have a cup of British tea. :like:

    And why concentrate on immigration as if that is the only reason that people voted out, the EU has wormed its way into controlling too many aspects of peoples daily lives, we need out.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    Some on the far right probably did believe that a vote to leave the EU was a vote to end immigration. But they would be a very small minority of Brexiters one of whose demands was to retake control of the country's borders so that sensible decisions could be taken as to who can enter the country. Were we to remain in the EU, we would have no option but to join the Schengen Zone and permit full freedom of movement. Britain would then lose the ability of controlling non-EU family members arriving on Family Permits.

    This is exactly the situation here in the Schengen Zone: my wife lives and works here completely legally but there are Filipinos, Indonesians and other non-EU citizens who have overstayed their visas and who can not be removed from the country by EU law; most of these did not enter Malta directly but moved here from another Schengen country. They can continue to live and work here for as long as they choose. From what my wife has told me - and she knows several such overstayers - they ultimately want to go to the UK because wages are so much higher there than they are here and Britain's in-work benefits make the country every migrant's favoured country.

    The other issue is that of non-EU economic migrants claiming to be asylum-seekers and are being admitted wholesale by over-worked and under-resourced authorities elsewhere in Europe and all thanks to Mrs Merkel. They will have the same freedom of movement rights as any other EU citizen and, of course, Britain will be a top destination.

    Unlike migrants who came to Britain in earlier years, the modern migrant is only interested in getting money. They are not interested in integrating into the community at large, learning our language and respecting our customs but form their own separate communities living in isolation. This model, actively promoted by Tony Blair and his liberal elite, is proving to be the cause of tension throughout the country.

    What "sustained damage"? By that, do you mean the removal of the liberal elite from power, an elite that has lied to us for many, many years and not just in this country but the Philippines, the US, Germany, France, Austria, Hungary and elsewhere where the "populists" are making their voices heard? What about the damage that has been done to our communities by your economic god "Globalisation". Let's face it, you don't give a damn for the very many people in the country that Globalisation has either left behind or completely disadvantaged, just as long as you will continue to prosper in your cosy existence. Yes, I do acknowledge that Brexit will have its casualties - but many will suffer self-inflicted wounds - and that there will necessarily have to be Big Changes some of which may be painful. But yes, it will all be worth it in the end as Britain will rise whilst the rest of Europe stagnates, stifled by an increasing amount of time and money-wasting bureaucracy. And I predict the Scots will stay with us and continue to provide key players in the game of life.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    I don't read newspapers Dave.
  5. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    The friend here who voted for Brexit because he 'wanted rid of the Paki's' (sic) surprisingly large number of them wanted that here near Liverpool, the others who wanted rid of the 'Turkish' and so many who wanted rid of the 'Poles' a lot of them just wanted rid of the 'blacks' (sic) it was alarming that they quite literally wanted to send British born and bred people back 'home'.

    What I at least got to see was just how unpleasant the people around me really are, and a lot of other people woke up to exactly the same thing that day.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    They do this so they can lump Brexiters into a convenient far right grouping and label them as Fascists and racists. That despite the fact that many Brexiters are politically left of centre and the "Racist" tag is factually incorrect.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Timmers
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    Timmers Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    I think it is fair to say that the worrying immigration that lead to the UK voting to leave the EU was the immigration we have seen over the last 15 years or so, to be more precise the influx of millions of eastern Europeans.

    You just need to watch the news today and see how the NHS is struggling to cope with the sheer numbers they have to treat, and this is only going to get worst as time goes on.

    I would like someone to tell me why it is racist to want to control the UK borders, to me its just common sense, from a personal point of view I am looking at numbers not where they come from.

    I think that in the near future the rest of the EU will wake up and also reform their policy on freedom of movement, its just a crazy idea, a Liberal idea :)
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  8. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Unlike the vast majority of people you have met throughout your life Markham, I am an apolitical creature, I am driven largely by curiosity and the need to understand the world around me, I work on probabilities whereas in your political point scoring world you need certainties and have to present everything in black or white, in my world there is a whole spectrum of possibility between the dark and the light.
  9. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    And that is exactly why you are both blind and thick, in or out they will always have a hold over UK exporters in all shapes and forms, because it's their playing field and their ball and the precious few manufactures and exporters we have left will have to bend over backwards to have any hope of exploiting those markets whatsoever.

    And if, as you would like, we give up on those markets those exporters will simply cease to exist, the UK economy is a fifty ton Elephant it is not capable of handbrake turns round a thruppenny bit.
  10. Timmers
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    Timmers Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    You have to remember that once we leave the EU we will be able to forge new trade deals with the countries outside the EU, as it is our hands are tied. Its a big world out there with lots of new business opportunities to be had, we can become truly global.

    Business is not everything, life is :)
  11. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Dynamics of business and trade mean that things go down a long long way before they ever come back up again, in the meantime we all suffer the price of the downturn and in this case you lot are unbelievably optimistic about what can be achieved in unrealistic timescales.

    To all intents and purposes most of my plans for the future have been decimated already.
  12. Markham
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    Markham Guest

    "It's all about ME" seems to be a common theme among Remainers. My generation, many of whom voted to leave, were thinking about their children's and their grandchildren's future when they cast their vote, not their own. But I can and do understand your anger.
  13. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Ha, small minded as ever, firstly I don't believe you are actually being truthful in that statement, secondly why do you think the constant theme amongst all of my posting history on this place has been a deep concern for the future of the entire human race, the populist revolution of recent times puts me in a branch of history where I may live to see the death of all my hopes and dreams for the future of all of us.

    I have only one real dream and desire which is to see the human race endure and survive the birth pains of becoming a multi planetary space faring people, we have one chance at that and a limited amount of time in which to achieve it, recent world events are making that much less likely.

    I might never have grandchildren that is up to my kids, but I am at least a great uncle already, but I don't need the direct relationship in order to care about the future of all people.

    And as usual you rely on a putdown assertion to try to get the last word, you can have the last word if you want I am just about done on this entire topic.
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2017
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  14. Timmers
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    Timmers Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    Don't do an Andrew on us oss :)

    I feel you burden yourself with trying to make sense of how the world ticks over, that could send a chap crazy trying to figure that one out.

    I sense in your posts that you feel Armageddon could be around the corner for the human race.
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  15. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    If I lost my curiosity the only place left would be the grave, one of the few delights I have in this world is watching human progress.

    For some obscure reason people who make daily use of motor vehicles, computers, cellphones, airplanes, the internet, health systems and treatments and thousands of other aspects of our modern technological life, all of which are effectively 'magic' to them, which they do not understand and never will, feel perfectly free to condemn and ridicule the opinions and work of the people, history and method that brought all of those luxuries into their lives.

    There was an article about a rapper who would likely be an absolute nobody without all of things I mention above tweeting about the 'round earth' conspiracy, it is clearly and obviously flat, I almost vomited all over my computer reading that.

    At that point you begin to realise that there is an entire class of mental states occupied by people that become impenetrable to any form of reason, it can be flat Earther's, it can be any political dogma, it can be any interest group that has something to gain, it can be nutters like David Icke or L. Ron Hubbard or countless more.

    Human society goes through swings and roundabouts it always has, it is just frickin sad that when we are in the beginnings of a Malthusian catastrophe that we revert to type, at the one time in history when we need to put aside division and difference we do the exact opposite, and we are running out of time and the relevant resources in many ways, we get one chance and through pettiness and lack of education we squander that chance.

    I have been proven wrong many times in my life and I am usually very thankful when that happens, for me it is a coping mechanism, something that gets me through the insanity I see around me every day, but me I am running out of time too.
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
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  16. Dave_E
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    Dave_E Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    How is that dream affected by Brexit?

    I would imagine that most people would prefer to stay on planet earth rather than being blasted off on a one way trip to the nether regions of the galaxy.
  17. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest

    There is a lot of truth in that statement.
    We evolve as human beings by becoming free,independent,critical thinkers..
    Not dumb Sheep.
    Please try at least to respect alternative opinions,otherwise your views may come across as being arrogant or superior elitist in some way.
    Look at Jean-Claude Juncker for instance!!
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2017
  18. Bootsonground
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    Bootsonground Guest

    I was sensible because I suddenly refused to continue to listen to the "financial experts" run by greedy institutional money grabbing swine that had no interest whatsoever in my personal success or failure.
    They wished to profit from giving me very bad advice which I thankfully shunned... Bernie Maddoff was a shyster that no one saw coming..He gets exposed as a lying scammer and they jail him for the rest of his life..
    World banks screw the western world with their junk bonds and sub prime mortgage scams and our leaders bail these criminals out with tax payers money after they ruin and rip off hundreds of thousands of people.. DISGUSTING!!
    That is not how I was brought up to treat people.. What ever happened to honesty and integrity??
    Have those words been fazed out in this world of technological advance?
  19. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    'Elitist' a modern code putdown used by those with neither the inclination nor ability to master a subject and contribute real advance to the sum total of human knowledge.

    Words have power they can be used to sway those that don't want to think too hard for themselves.

    It is impossible in this modern world to understand everything, the days when the polymath was possible are long gone, very very few people alive today could even begin to claim expertise across multiple disciplines, so what does that have to do with the subject in hand?

    It's simple really, I cannot master every subject under the sun but I respect the process the scientific method that built this world today and when I am presented with the best interpretations and results as agreed by the vast majority of the members of any particular discipline, I listen and I listen because the I trust the honesty and integrity of the vast majority of those using the process/method I refer to above.

    That process/method has a defining quality, it delivers results that are repeatable and verifiable, the results are peer reviewed and over time particularly where there are practical applications of the knowledge we grow to trust those results.

    Those who believe that critical free independent thinking is a licence to disagree with anything that does not fit their agenda simply don't understand how we got to where we are now over the last few hundred years. If you imagine like that rapper that your free independent critical thinking entitles you to believe the world is flat then sure go ahead believe the world is flat but don't expect anyone else to respect your free independent critical thinking or the method you used to reach the conclusion that the world is flat.

    Sadly the myth that we are all fully entitled to believe what we like in the face of any evidence to the contrary has taken hold of way too many people on this planet and frankly it is too late to change a new dark age is coming from which we will probably never escape, that's an opinion by the way not a pronouncement of fact.

    The issue Boots is that I am not entitled to have opinions on whether Newton's laws of motion and theory of gravity are correct, I am not entitled to have an opinion on whether the MMR vaccine is safe, I am not entitled to have an opinion on the veracity of climate change, why, because Newton's laws of motion are observably and demonstrably correct, I trust the method and research employed to verify that MMR is safe via repeated studies is correct and in the same fashion I have done no work on climate change but I trust the great many people that have and I trust the method they employed.

    Show me a single example from the last hundred years where an entire field of knowledge was in any way overturned, you won't be able to, I can show you hundreds of occasions where knowledge was built upon and extended and where the underlying understanding of a field became deeper and more subtle but there are no examples in any concrete area of human scientific endeavour where anything major was just plain wrong.

    You and I and everyone else are entitled to their own opinions in the realm political and I have expressed mine and the reasons why, regards Brexit my opinions are not science and my extrapolations and projections are not science, there are simply a lot of things about the argument that I find distasteful deceitful and disingenuous and for me at least I see a very difficult future for all of us and I'm not going over all of that again.

    The situation in the USA is more alarming and that cuts to the core of what I am on about above, there is a movement there against the very principles of rationality.

    I'm a programmer I have not contributed to the sum total of human knowledge, I apply my understanding of the realm of computer languages to invent new and interesting ways to do things but I am just applying and extending the work of the true geniuses that developed the mathematical and physical framework that actually allows humanity to build computers George Boole, Alan Turing and the less well known such as Alphonse Louis Poitevin and all the countless others who contributed all the small advances required to create our modern world.

    Do you get the pattern, it's co-operation that results in humanities advance, not division and argument.

    When I see an elite group of the best researchers on the planet deliver their results I tend to listen and I show them respect, not contempt.
  20. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Finance is not a science and financial experts are not generally scientists, some are mathematicians though.

    Economics on the other hand is a young discipline and one that can only really be understood by those who are highly trained in mathematics as most of the output is in the form of mathematical models, the reason you have little or no faith in those so called experts is that the results of the models are generally misappropriated by one or other interest group who take one or other extreme end of the results and attempt to use it to advance their political cause.

    You rarely hear anyone give a fair rendition of what the results of a particular bit of modelling actually means, although the BoE makes a fair attempt most of the time.

    Regards honesty and integrity every single financial product that you can buy over the counter has words tantamount to the following 'your investment can go up or down you are not guaranteed to make a profit' emblazoned all over it, the majority of financial products that you or I can purchase are pretty honest and have been for a very long time.

    Insurance is a gamble, pension saving is a worthwhile gamble, investing in a Ponzi is plain freaking stupid.

    Banks are owned by shareholders who demand dividends and return on investment, people working for those banks got creative about spreading the risk, it worked for quite a long time, by the time they were selling investments in sub prime mortgages they were getting desperate to keep the returns coming in.

    What is a sub prime mortgage, it's a loan to someone who can't actually afford to own a house or other property, the banks reached a point where to support their greed for growth and bonuses they had to sell products to people who could not pay the capital and interest on those products, to protect the banks themselves they then invented ways to wrap up these loans and insure them through CDS Credit default swaps, effectively spreading the risk throughout the entire system, it was another Ponzi another example of a variety of Malthusian catastrophe.

    So who was to blame, the regulators for failing to understand what was happening in the system, the politicians for constantly encouraging the dream of infinite growth, the people for swallowing that dream, when they all woke up to the reality what did you expect he governments to do, the only things big enough to contain the mess were governments, if they had let the banks fail the little guys in the street would have experienced much more pain than they did, most people's private pension investments would likely have ceased to exist a great many more businesses would have failed and a great many more people would have been unemployed.

    As I alluded to in my earlier post we were all responsible because we all wanted to believe it could go on forever, but it couldn't because the underlying arithmetic was that of a Ponzi.

    Madoff was just a spectacularly lucky git that preyed on the greedy gullible rich, sure a lot of small guys lost out to him but they were the kind of word of mouth personal recommendation investors the small guy with a bit of dosh that trusts someone he knows that's telling him oh look you really got to get into this it's a dead cert, greedy people are often easily separated from their cash. The single most amazing thing about Madoff was that he managed to hide the Ponzi for such an incredibly long time.
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