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Calories In Calories Out

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by Anon220806, Aug 8, 2020.

  1. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    For those that cling to the laws of thermodynamics when it comes to food, maybe this guy and this video will help explain the shortcomings of trying to burn off fat by exercise or eating less to lose weight or by eating less fat.

    Last edited: Aug 8, 2020
  2. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    John I don't care what anyone says fuel consumed has to be burned, if you burn more then you consume you will lose mass, if you burn less than you consume you will gain mass.

    The chemical pathways are irrelevant, we are heat engines, if you are gaining weight your activity and fuel consumption are out of balance, if you are losing weight your activity and fuel consumption are also out of balance.

    How you go about achieving a reduction in mass is open to discussion and what they are discussing here does make sense, but there is no escaping the first law of thermodynamics "energy cannot be created or destroyed" and in my words it can only be moved around, food is chemical energy stored in the chemical bonds in the molecules making up the substance of the food, it takes energy to store fat, it takes energy to move, it takes energy to stay at a temperature where the biological machine that you are functions, get too cold and all the processes stop, i.e. you die, it takes energy to think, and all of that makes up an energy budget.

    Keeping that budget in balance is how normal people stay a normal size, they do it by adjusting their activity to the amount of food they consume and they do it naturally they don't even know they are doing it.

    People with weight issues are big because these systems are out of balance and as creatures with the ability to take conscious decisions sometimes we take the wrong ones, I for one I have always hated physical activity but I have always loved food I am my own worst enemy.

    I agree with a lot of what this doctor is saying but I don't think he is directly supporting the notion that there is something wrong with thermodynamics, there absolutely isn't.
  3. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    I don’t think he is discrediting the law of thermal dynamics. He is simply saying that it isn’t as simple as that in the human metabolism. He then explains how best to lose fat and how it is built in the first place. If it was solely down to calories in calories out then we would be okay on 1500kcal of doughnuts each day that we can burn off in the gym later. Food does more than provide energy, if it was the case that it was all about energy then I could fill up on 10 litres of unleaded a week. His analogy with wood is a good one. So rather than calories it is much more about what one eats. And ultimately it is why people struggle to lose weight across the globe. Firstly they reduce calories and can’t sustain it as they get hungry. And secondly one has to exercise a hell of a lot to lose weight significantly. You cannot outrun a bad diet.

    Now if we were a bomb calorimeter then it might be different.
  4. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    If all you ate was 1500 cals of doughnuts and you went to the gym and burned that much (very very hard to do that) you would not get heavier but you would get sick as doughnuts are not on their own very good for you as a basic diet :)

    I have never said it was not about human behaviour, but it ultimately is down to calories in and calories out, humans don't know what is happening moment to moment but their bodies do and our body compensates for our choices.

    A calorie is just a measure of heat, one calorie raises the temperature of one gram of water by one degree centigrade, that's it, a fully definable quantifiable measure.

    Food provides energy and the chemical balance that we need that is why the wrong foods create Insulin spikes, yes I agree with the reasoning but there is nothing special about any food, what I agree with is that controlling Insulin spikes matters but he himself on several occasions says you can have a high carbohydrate diet and be fine he is pushing the idea of the number of times you eat per day and I actually agree with that, if you eat often your insulin will be more out of whack than it would be if you had three meals a day or if you were an overweight 60 year old on two meals a day, he was quite clear that reducing frequency of eating was the most important point and I agree with that, from personal experience amongst other things.

    We are a bomb calorimeter but no one is able to measure our closed system easily :D

    Honestly John there is a total measure of energy emitted by a human being in one day and the amount consumed, that experiment is a closed room experiment that is thermally well controlled, has anyone done it, I bet they have but I've not gone looking for results.

    We are on two side of something that we actually agree on mate, but the words are not providing the right conclusion, and the thought processes to get there are on different tracks :)
  5. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Let me try to clear this up, a diet based on calorie in calorie out probably will not work for most people basically all of the time, some young people yes it will probably work because they have good control of their insulin.

    It won't work for the rest of us because people don't understand what is actually happening to them.

    They will not do the exercise and they won't understand the effects of Insulin and it will all go tits up.

    We agree John :) I'm just being pedantic about the physics :) because I have to be :D
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2020
  6. Jim
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    Jim Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    I'm not on a diet but started to ferment vegetables (kimchi) It's suppose to be very good for the gut and intestines. And it should last for a year if kept refrigerated.
    I noticed it on YouTube, Korean side dish. Bought some in the main store it's a bit hot made out of fermented cabbage and other vegetables lots of ground red pepper and hot chilies.
    It suppresses hunger and is probiotic.
  7. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    We love Kimchi or at least me and James, Janna is not so fond of it, I buy it every time I am in the Philippines, love it with rice and with a lot of different standard Filipino dishes.

    I love the heat :D
  8. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    Not sure I like the sound of it. :D Though I guess it tastes better than it sounds?
  9. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Kimchi is amazing, give it a try, it is a hot Sauerkraut, it is possible to source it tin the UK, I managed to buy some in Bold Street in Liverpool a few times although that particular Korean grocer next to Mattas has gone out of business now.
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Jim
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    Jim Well-Known Member Trusted Member

    It's very easy to make Jim, you can make it easy are hard or hot or mild. Loads of you-tube videos instructions.
  11. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    Its interesting looking at the history. Started with a french scientist back in 1700s measuring the amount of heat given off whena a guinea pig eats a certain amount of food.

    Calorie accountancy has failed continuously for 40 years. It's a metabolic, not a thermodynamic problem. It's all about the insulin.
  12. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    John the point is that anyone following the insulin modulation advice only loses weight because the changes they make results in (kinetic and chemical thermal output + waste) being > (chemical potential energy in).

    If you consume 3000 calories worth of chemical energy per day at one sitting with one insulin spike and you do nothing other than sit at a desk all day, there is no way that your body will increase its thermal output to burn off the 1000 or so calories of extra chemical energy that you consumed, your body will rapidly store it all away as fat and then at some point start drawing down on that fat to keep you alive for that day at the end of the day you will be about 1/3rd of a pound heavier so that every day and I promise you that person will get fatter.

    Modifying Insulin will work but it will also change your behaviour and appetite and total consumption, for people with appetite disorders it won't work.

    You cannot eat whatever you like in unlimited quantities at just three sittings, it is impossible anyone who does that will get fat unless they become substantially more active.

    I agree with the doctor in the opening post, people should not be spiking their insulin by eating 10 times a day, and people who have ate like that for 20 years probably need to reduce their intake to as few as two meals a day or less to get the change required and that change will be quick, I know I have done it countless times.

    The problem most people have with calorie restriction is that their diet is too aggressive and after a certain period of time their activity drops and overall they are burning less.

    Metabolism is a thermodynamic problem :)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolism

    and particularly

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metabolism#Thermodynamics_of_living_organisms
  13. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    Eat to satiety. That’s all you have to do. But you can’t do that on a bowl of cereal in the morning. You can with bacon and eggs for example.

    I am not trying to persuade. Just trying to help. The nation has an obesity problem. Why, because it cannot follow CICO? Or because CICO doesn’t work. CICO has been on the go for decades, we get bigger and sicker. Just ask the NHS. It’s because the CICO notion doesn’t work unless you are an Olympic athlete or someone on the go all day long. For most of those who eat less and move more it cannot work, especially those with insulin resistance.

    Wikipedia also states another element to metabolism however Wikipedia is waaay behind on that topic.

    Have a read of Tom Watson’s book.
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2020
  14. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Some people find that hard, particularly when they have led active lives and that level of activity changes be it gradually or suddenly.

    I've seen people with weight problems and watched the portion sizes they consume and it can be quite incredible the amount that they think is an acceptable portion.
  15. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    Thing is anyone with an alcohol problem is going to find it very hard to stop having another drink no matter how much they have had to eat.

    I actually have a personal belief that some of the alcoholic's craving for booze is actually a calorie or rather food craving because they tend not to have a very good diet to start with and don't sort their diet when they stop drinking.
  16. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    It’s very easy if you eat the right food. Perfectly possible to eat to satiety and lose weight. Carbs will not fill you. Fat will fill you but it doesn’t make you fat.
  17. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    Well carb cravings are a bit like alcoholism. That’s fairly well recognised. It makes it very hard to stop eating them.

    Mrs Ash can’t stop herself. :D
  18. Anon220806
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    Anon220806 Well-Known Member

    @oss

    I thought you had conceded on the effects of insulin. But then you fall back into the laws of thermodynamics again. Jason Fung ( yes never heard of him and funny name ) is well known for his contribution to this field and he explains it all very well, even the application of the law of thermodynamics.
    I understand why you lean that way but sometimes we can’t see a solution when it hits us in the face. I have come across that quite a bit but its those that get to a point where they have tried everything including CICO and their level of health does not improve but deteriorates all the same. They then try cutting back on carbs and increasing good fats and find that it works and works very well.
    As you can tell I am well into this and am currently involved with 3 GP surgeries in my region where the aim of dietary intervention is being used to improve people’s chronic conditions. Or what was thought to be chronic and progressive. Leading to reversal in many cases. I have just hooked up with a couple of people in Liverpool who are running low carb groups for people in Liverpool where the aim is to reverse the health conditions of the local people there.

    Of course mindsets have to be changed and CICO is one of those areas where change has to be applied before results can be realised. There is resistance from some quarters and those that rely on CICO for a living like personal trainers and gym instructors who benefit from the calorie agenda are an example - they want everyone in the gym working off (or trying to work off) their doughnuts or mars bars etc.

    COVID 19 has introduced another element to it all. Was reading in the Independent today that in some quarters, when the second wave comes around, home quarantining the over 50s that are over weight might be applied instead of locking down the greater populous. It that happens there might well be high focus indeed on dietary intervention.

    This was something I had anticipated:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...lderly-self-isolate-second-wave-a9661716.html
  19. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    John you are a scientist, I am not taking about dieting or weight loss I am talking about the reality of physics, you cannot escape it, human beings are closed systems, the energy flows in out and out of us are real, energy cannot be created or destroyed, you cannot magically consume more energy than you emit by all means of emission, it can't happen without storage i.e. getting bigger.

    Insulin modification when it works is working because consciously or unconsciously the behaviour of the person changes, anything else is impossible.

    One aspect of behaviour is activity.

    I'm not talking about a solution for dieting I am saying that all diets that work result in a conscious or unconscious alteration in behaviour, that is why they work, the medium of action may well be better control of Insulin but you cannot escape thermodynamics otherwise we might as well abandon all science.

    You can have an engine working at 10% efficiency or an engine that works at 20% efficiency, you are talking about the 20% guy or any other higher number you want to posit, but you cannot have an engine that works at 110% efficiency I am saying the 110% efficiency guy is impossible.

    From what I get from the Insulin argument they are talking about improving the efficiency of the engine while holding all other inputs in stasis.

    In reality all the other variables change but the net result is a more efficient engine, it still does not let you consume more fuel than you use.
  20. oss
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    oss Somewhere Staff Member

    An old story, every skinny person I every knew for any length of time on observation of them they never stop moving, I have never ever met a normal thin person who was sedentary, the legs fidget constant bouncing the arms move all the time they walk around they talk a lot (not always at the same time and they don't all have these attributes at the same time).

    The leg fidgeting, that drives me nuts, I could kill when stuck in a room with one of them ;) :D and I was madly in love with a lassie who was like that 44 years ago :D
    • Funny Funny x 1

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